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Postby Romanticar » Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:21 pm

podravec wrote:For instance:

Croatian: Hoćemo li ići?
Serbian: Hoćemo li da idemo?

Joanna, correct me if I'm wrong.


Se e toa ok ama moras da priznaes deka sepak ovie razliki i ne se taka golemi i tolku bitni. :wink:



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Postby Joana » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:49 pm

podravec wrote:For instance:

Croatian: Hoćemo li ići?
Serbian: Hoćemo li da idemo?

Joanna, correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes, that's correct. Although in Serbian the infinitive construction is also used, therefore we can say "Hoćemo li ići" and personally I prefer that option.

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Postby Joana » Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:46 pm

vande wrote:I thought I'd read a bit more on the current subject, and I found these Encyclopedia entries for Serbo-Croatian, or Croato-Serbian. Interesting read, and it would be nice if someone comments on the truthfullness and objectivity.


Checked it out, it was an interesting read. The only thing that's IMO wrong is the statement "Before 1990's the language in Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina was the same as standard Croatian." That's just not true.

I have a question for Macedonian speakers. How close is your language to Bulgarian? How much Bulgarian do you understand? For example, can you watch Bulgarian TV, read newspapers and books in Bulgarian and so on.
Also, does any of you speak Albanian?

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Postby euskadi commander » Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:04 pm

Joana wrote:
podravec wrote:For instance:

Croatian: Hoćemo li ići?
Serbian: Hoćemo li da idemo?

Joanna, correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes, that's correct. Although in Serbian the infinitive construction is also used, therefore we can say "Hoćemo li ići" and personally I prefer that option.


:lol: :lol:

You've ruined his theory :wink:

Anyway, the former Serbo-Croatian can not be separated only on Serbian and Croatian. Bosnian and Montenegrin have the same right of independence. :wink:

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Postby euskadi commander » Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:10 pm

Joana wrote:
vande wrote:I thought I'd read a bit more on the current subject, and I found these Encyclopedia entries for Serbo-Croatian, or Croato-Serbian. Interesting read, and it would be nice if someone comments on the truthfullness and objectivity.


Checked it out, it was an interesting read. The only thing that's IMO wrong is the statement "Before 1990's the language in Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina was the same as standard Croatian." That's just not true.

I have a question for Macedonian speakers. How close is your language to Bulgarian? How much Bulgarian do you understand? For example, can you watch Bulgarian TV, read newspapers and books in Bulgarian and so on.
Also, does any of you speak Albanian?


I find myself competent to answer this since I study etnology.

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

Bulgarian is the closest Slavic language to Macedonian, but the differences are much bigger than between the Serbian and Croatian. Actually, I would say that some Macedonian dialects have bigger differences than Serbian and Croatian.

As for Bulgarian, the biggest differences are the leksical differences (sufficient number of words with different root), than the accenting of the words, the –ot, -ta, -to, -te, -ov, -va, -vo, -ve, -on, -na, -no, -ne suffixes of the determination of the nouns (they have only –ot, -ta, -to, -te), the different alphabet etc.

Similar things are the lost of the cases and the infinitive.

Despite the fact that it is the closest Slavic language to Macedonian, I think (I take me for example) that Bulgarian is little less understandable than Serbian. That’s because the dominance of the Serbian in the past in ex-Yugoslavia (until 1991), also because in nowadays is still the language that we hear more often than Bulgarian) and I believe that we have more words with same roots with Serbian.

The influence of the Serbian continues today through the music, allthough the Bulgarians made improvement in music industry (on the field of marketing) but their quailty is low.
I call the Bulgarian pop-music a “humor-music”, since you can’t find anything touchy in it.

On the other hand, Bulgarians are fanatic for Macedonian folk songs and lately, for Macedonian any kind of songs and culture.
I can also say that Macedonian folk songs are highly rated in ex-Yugoslavia.

p.s. Albanian is spoked only by 2-3% non-Albanians.
Personaly, i’ve learnd about 1200 words (and grammar too off course) but now I forgot 50% of that

Goran

Postby Goran » Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:45 pm

I agree with everything Euskadi wrote except for this:

euskadi commander wrote:The influence of the Serbian continues today through the music


I think that the influence in music now goes the other way. Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and now Croatia get influenced by the Macedonian music.



As for the Macedonian - Bulgarian closeness, I find it hard to understand Bulgarian when spoken even the grammar is close due to case lost. Serbian is understandable for me like 99.9 %. When its written they are both understandable.

That all goes for the standard language. The dialects are another story...

I know onle about 10 words in Albanian :D

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Postby LokomotivaFan » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:55 pm

Goran wrote:I think that the influence in music now goes the other way. Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and now Croatia get influenced by the Macedonian music.


I partly agree with you here. In recent years, let's say last 7 or 8 years, the influence of Serbian and Bosnian music has been tromendous in Croatia, when in the years before the war it was the other way around. Bosnian and Serbian folk songs have become unbelievably popular here. Now everyone's singing folk.
But Macedonian music hasn't yet reached Croatia. Here no one even knew who Tose Proeski was until last years Eurovision. After it, his album came out but I don't think it did so well. I'm not sure many people know about him here even now.

Abot the languages:
Serbian and Croatian are separate and distinct languages but I don't mind it when someone says Serbo-croatian or somethng like that. Anyone who knows one of these languages knows the other as well, same goes for Bosnian. Joana pointed well the grammatical difference of using da+present, and infinitiv. The only other diference I can think of is that standard Croatian has the "ijekavica" while Serbian has the "ekavica", so you get "dijete" and "dete".
I believe Danish and Norwegian are also very similar and mutually intelligable although maybe not as much as our two languages.

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Postby martinmk » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:43 am

LokomotivaFan wrote:
Goran wrote:I think that the influence in music now goes the other way. Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and now Croatia get influenced by the Macedonian music.


I partly agree with you here. In recent years, let's say last 7 or 8 years, the influence of Serbian and Bosnian music has been tromendous in Croatia, when in the years before the war it was the other way around. Bosnian and Serbian folk songs have become unbelievably popular here. Now everyone's singing folk.
But Macedonian music hasn't yet reached Croatia. Here no one even knew who Tose Proeski was until last years Eurovision. After it, his album came out but I don't think it did so well. I'm not sure many people know about him here even now.

Abot the languages:
Serbian and Croatian are separate and distinct languages but I don't mind it when someone says Serbo-croatian or somethng like that. Anyone who knows one of these languages knows the other as well, same goes for Bosnian. Joana pointed well the grammatical difference of using da+present, and infinitiv. The only other diference I can think of is that standard Croatian has the "ijekavica" while Serbian has the "ekavica", so you get "dijete" and "dete".
I believe Danish and Norwegian are also very similar and mutually intelligable although maybe not as much as our two languages.


Agree with you. But Tose is more known in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Slovenia and there he is popular. It's difficult for the singers to reach the Croatian teritory i don't know why but they all say this. And about Croatian singers in Macedonia, we know some of them but they aren't so popular, for example i know only one song from Toni Cetinski and he is very popular in Croatia.

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Postby euskadi commander » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:55 am

Goran wrote:I agree with everything Euskadi wrote except for this:

euskadi commander wrote:The influence of the Serbian continues today through the music


I think that the influence in music now goes the other way. Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and now Croatia get influenced by the Macedonian music.


I can't say anything about that, since I don't live outside Macedonia.
I said Serbian music, but maybe is Croatian or... I don't really know the artists and it has no influence on me.

However, you can't say that it has no continuing influence in the past and now

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Postby LokomotivaFan » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:49 pm

martinmk wrote:Agree with you. But Tose is more known in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Slovenia and there he is popular. It's difficult for the singers to reach the Croatian teritory i don't know why but they all say this. And about Croatian singers in Macedonia, we know some of them but they aren't so popular, for example i know only one song from Toni Cetinski and he is very popular in Croatia.


Yes that's true. Croatia is more oriented to the Bosnian and Serbian market, both in export and import. I can't think of any Slovenian or Macedonian artist that's popular here. I wouldn't even know about Tose if Goran hadn't told me about him. Maybe things will change in the future.

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Postby euskadi commander » Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:11 am

I mentioned the music as a way that a language can influence in other countries (in my example Serbian in Macedonia). I don’t see how Toshe Proeski singing in Serbian can promote the Macedonian language outside Macedonia and Macedonian language to make some influence in those countries above.

And you Joana, in what procent do you understand Bulgarian?

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Postby Joana » Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:46 pm

euskadi commander wrote:I mentioned the music as a way that a language can influence in other countries (in my example Serbian in Macedonia). I don’t see how Toshe Proeski singing in Serbian can promote the Macedonian language outside Macedonia and Macedonian language to make some influence in those countries above.

And you Joana, in what procent do you understand Bulgarian?


I haven't had too much contact with Bulgarian to be honest. I only heard some songs (which were pretty hilarious BTW), and I could understand, let's say, about 50% of the words. I suppose I would understand more if I spoke Russian, but unfortunately I don't.

As for the influence of the music... Well, during the 1990's Croatian music was pretty taboo here. We knew some songs (for example, ET's "Tek je 12 sati" was a huge hit) but they never had any media exposure. Then, in 1999 all the gates opened widely and the Croatian musicians were all over our TV and radio, and it's been like that ever since.
Macedonian music is represented in Tose and Karolina, but they sing in Serbian.
Some Bosnian singers are also popular, while Slovenian music never caught on here.

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Postby martincho » Mon May 09, 2005 11:57 pm

Ah, the music. I think that almost every music from the neigboring countries to Macedonia has reached here. I don't know about Albanian music but for sure the albanians that live here listen to it.
The Bulgarian turbo pop folk and i don't know how to name that music is coming very popular in the past one or two years. There is not a person in Macedonia that not knows about the canal Planeta. Bulgarian music with this type of progres will overcome Serbian turbo folk in a few years it seems.
I don't want to comment the songs ..... that something else but I think the main reason, maybe not for everyone that listens to Bulgarian music, is due to their "provocative" female singers, and their big (I hope you know what). With no insult to anyone that is just my opinion

About the language diference I think Bulgarian is closest with Macedonian but because we don't have much contact with the language it looks difficult to us. Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian are easier as others tell in their statement because we were the same state untill 1991 and almost everyone that speaks now in this forum that comes from Macedonia (but from Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro and Slovenia too) is born in former Yugoslavia, and old memories are hard to forget, especialy when you have older people to talk about how was to live at that time.
For me this languages are easy understandable, I can't tell that only for Slovenian only. :idea:

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Postby Jakale » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:35 am

Finnish and English fluently.
I could properly have a conversation in Swedish, Spanish and Hungarian.
I'm currently trying to improve my skills in German.
My Chinese sucks.
I also own course books in French, Italian, Russian and Estonian, but this far I've been too lazy to start learning them.

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Postby asar » Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:21 pm

Bulgarian more similar to Russian!?!? Don't make me laugh. Macedonian and Bulgarian are close languages

I understand 99% of Serbian and Croatian and can speak it pretty well but won't out of principle...they should make the effort to understand me in Macedonian...

I understand 99% of Bulgarian as well...and can speak it as well as Serbian more or less...

Passable English...

That's it.

Some true polyglots here on the forum...surprising...
aasss

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Postby calle » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:25 am

there is a danish subject (of turkish origen) en jail in Sarajevo. according to the newpapers he has used the time in confinement to learn Bosnian! is there a language called bosnian? some years ago the danish radio DR transmitted news in serbo-croatian, because denmark had (has) many immigrants from yougoslavia. i remember there were to hosts, one from Belgrade and one from Sarajevo. wasn't their language understandable in all the yougoslavian republics? i have understood that in macedonia the language is (almost) bulgarian. and slovenia, what language do they speak there?
or is it so that everybody speaks serbo-croatian with different dialects, and the dialects have become national languages after the disolution of the yougoslavian republic?

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Postby LokomotivaFan » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:33 pm

These are three seprate languages, Croatian, Serbian and I guess Bosnian too, I guess due to political correctness. But there are almost no differences between these three languages. There are slight diferences in grammar and spelling of some words and of course there are some words used in one language that aren't in the other. All these differences are so small that if you know one of these three languages, you know them all. I'd say they are about 95% the same. :)

or is it so that everybody speaks serbo-croatian with different dialects, and the dialects have become national languages after the disolution of the yougoslavian republic?

Something like this, yes.

In Slovenia they speak Slovenian. Now this language is similar to the other three but not as much. Many Croatians can't understand a word of it, some understand it quite well. I can understand it but I can't speak it. If they spoke in a dialect I probably wouldn't understand a word. :lol: The vocabulary is very different but it's easy to pick up if you know one of the other languages.
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Postby Goran » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:52 pm

calle wrote:I have understood that in Macedonia the language is (almost) bulgarian. and slovenia, what language do they speak there?
or is it so that everybody speaks serbo-croatian with different dialects, and the dialects have become national languages after the disolution of the yougoslavian republic?


I can't understand how you understood that Macedonian is (almost) Bulgarian? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Macedonian and Bulgarian are close languages (both are in the same language group), use similar (but not equal) alphabet BUT they are separate languages and separate people.

Here is a hint for you: I am Macedonian, but I can't watch Bulgarian TVs without subtitle - I have trouble understanding!
Get the picture?

Slovenians speak Slovenian (which I also can't understand - less then every other southern slavic language), and we used to be in the same country.

In Yugoslavia, there were 3 languages officially, Macedonian, Slovenian and Serbo - Croatian.

People, why don't we ask stuff before we presume something?

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Postby Milica » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:53 pm

calle wrote:there is a danish subject (of turkish origen) en jail in Sarajevo. according to the newpapers he has used the time in confinement to learn Bosnian! is there a language called bosnian? some years ago the danish radio DR transmitted news in serbo-croatian, because denmark had (has) many immigrants from yougoslavia. i remember there were to hosts, one from Belgrade and one from Sarajevo. wasn't their language understandable in all the yougoslavian republics? and slovenia, what language do they speak there?
or is it so that everybody speaks serbo-croatian with different dialects, and the dialects have become national languages after the disolution of the yougoslavian republic?


Well, bosnian is A LANGUAGE!
When there was SFRJ, we all HAD to speak a language that was called (by some so-called expert) serbo-croatian... Why? Noone knows? Or maybe because the Serbs were the majority and Tito was a Croat?
And Macedonians and Slovenians HAD TO learn serbo-croatian language as the official, but Bosnians, Serbs, Montenegrins and Croats didin't have to learn Macedonian and slovenian, which is an apsurd, because they are the most different languages of this part that was called SFRJ... Now, we all have our languages, called by the name of the republic we live in!

calle wrote:i have understood that in macedonia the language is (almost) bulgarian.

Well, you understood it very wrong!!! Macedonian is a language on its own... And not so much simillar to bulgarian so you could write this kind of statement!!!
It's like I say that danish is (almost) norwegian or swedish???
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Postby calle » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:31 pm

Thank you to everybody for your answers, now i'm much wiser. i hope i havn't offended anybody by beleiving Macedonian and bulgarian almost the same. i'm participating in a language group where we were discussing your languages. and milica: you are most welcome to state that danish is almost the same as norwegian and swedish, because that is a fact, especially danish and norwegian, till 1905 the official language of norway was danish, since then they have changed the spelling a bit compared to danish, but still fully understandable.
thanks again for the contribution.

Goran

Postby Goran » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:07 pm

calle wrote:Thank you to everybody for your answers, now i'm much wiser. i hope i havn't offended anybody by beleiving Macedonian and bulgarian almost the same.


Calle, you did offend me by writing Macedonian is (almost) Bulgarian, especially with the brackets, but as I can see there wasn't intention to to that so its forgiven. If you wrote "almost the same" it would have been tottaly different situation.

You should be very careful when discussing the national and linguistic differences and similarities of the Balkan countries since we are very, very sensitive on the issues.


Here is one example of the sensitivities:
We don't like Macedonian to be compared to Bulgarian, since Bulgarian is not referential in the case. Why not compare Bulgarian to Macedonian... ;)

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Postby martinmk » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:12 pm

The difference between Bulgarian and Macedonian at least for me is big though we can understand eachother. First of all we don't have the same alphabet, they have some letters that aren't in the Macedonian alphabet. They also have different words from ours, some of them sound Macedonian and I can understand but there are many words that I can't understand and they aren't similar to Macedonian words. Also we have many words that the Bulgarians can't understand. Bulgarian language is spoken on other accent, we put the accent on the 3rd vowel from the end of the word, in Bulgarian is different. These two languages can't be compared like the Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian and Montenegrian (I don't know if they have other grammar from the Serbian) and they have many differences.

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Postby euskadi commander » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:20 pm

Everybody is sensitive about the identity. And I learned here on the forum that the Scandinavians are much more extremists than Balcan people are, or at least they are on the same level.

Here’s the example:
calle wrote:. . . the official language of norway was danish . . .


Why do you say that?
If the two languages are so close, why don’t you say: “Norwegian was the official language of Denmark”.
Ha? It’s a simple question, don’t twist it!
Who has the right to give a name to a language?

I think we have explained about the south Slavic languages in this topic, so if you could just look for it calle . . .

But here’s short version for you (even though the other boyz&girlz explained pretty well):
In former SFR of Yugoslavia existed 3 official languages: Macedonian, Serbo-Croatian and Slovenian.
Now, Serbo-Croatian are 4 languages: Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin and Bosnian which are pretty, PRETTY CLOSE, and I personally can hardly make a difference. If you are an outsider, you have to be an expert to notice it. The Macedonian language dialects are more different than the 4 languages above.
But, those people have a right to have their own language (like they have), so the “Serbo-Croatian language policy” in the past was wrong.
[/quote]

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Postby calle » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:29 pm

euskadi commander wrote:Here’s the example:
calle wrote:. . . the official language of norway was danish . . .


I am astonished to read your reaction and response to my simple questions about the balkan languages. It seemes that you ascribe me viewpoints that I never had. I can assure you that I have no intention of entering into a discussion about who is more or less extremist.

Regarding the quote above it is a historial fact that I cannot change. You can read about the development of the norwegian language (from danish in the 19th and 20th century) on the web site of Wikipedia. I quote a small passage from the article:

"From Danish to Norwegian
Main article: Norwegian language struggle
From the 1840s, some writers experimented with a Norwegianized Danish by incorporating words that were descriptive of Norwegian scenery and folk life, and adopting a more Norwegian syntax. Knud Knudsen proposed to change spelling and inflection in accordance with the Dano-Norwegian koine, known as "cultivated everyday speech". A small adjustment in this direction was implemented in the first official reform of Danish language in Norway in 1862 and more extensively after his death in two official reforms in 1907 and 1917".

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Postby euskadi commander » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:04 am

calle wrote:
euskadi commander wrote:Here’s the example:
calle wrote:. . . the official language of norway was danish . . .


I am astonished to read your reaction and response to my simple questions about the balkan languages. It seemes that you ascribe me viewpoints that I never had. I can assure you that I have no intention of entering into a discussion about who is more or less extremist.

Regarding the quote above it is a historial fact that I cannot change. You can read about the development of the norwegian language (from danish in the 19th and 20th century) on the web site of Wikipedia. I quote a small passage from the article:

"From Danish to Norwegian
Main article: Norwegian language struggle
From the 1840s, some writers experimented with a Norwegianized Danish by incorporating words that were descriptive of Norwegian scenery and folk life, and adopting a more Norwegian syntax. Knud Knudsen proposed to change spelling and inflection in accordance with the Dano-Norwegian koine, known as "cultivated everyday speech". A small adjustment in this direction was implemented in the first official reform of Danish language in Norway in 1862 and more extensively after his death in two official reforms in 1907 and 1917".


My simple question was:
If those languages (Danish and Norwegian) are so close, like ONE language, why we wouldn’t call it Norwegian instead of Danish?
Why Norwegians to be discriminated? Like I predicted, you twisted the question and you telling us history.
History is not important for my question, which is a logical question.

And there were several other similar statemens from Danes on this forum, so it’s easy to draw a conclusion.
Sorry


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