Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Adriyanos » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:42 am

Germanicus wrote:Nice atmosphere.
How does CSM have so many fans? That club has never been really great, as far as I know, only recently. Does the club have teams in other kind of sports (e.g. football) and fans visit the handball game, too?


There were a lot of kids in the hall, they have 2.000 players in their teams. I think the game was exciting for them, as they had a lot to learn and a win boosted their morale. It's baby steps now, but if the club will be properly financed, CSM could become a force to be reckoned with in the next years.



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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby gergő » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:14 pm

Des57 wrote:the 12k new hall

any fresh info about this?

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Adriyanos » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:42 pm

They have to get it done by 2017, as there are Gymnastics WC there. Nothing was put in motion.

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Anicia Juliana » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:48 pm

Adriyanos wrote:....as there are Gymnastics WC there...

Europeans, Mr journalist, Europeans! don't perpatuate the newpaper's signature - "Never quite accurate"
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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Adriyanos » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:58 pm

Of course, my bad. It's the European Championship and the competition is due to take place in 10-17 April 2017. So they roughly have two years to get it done. :) I think you can forgive me if I'm not such a specialist in Gymnastics and you can also say I'm not a specialist in any sport. ;)

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Germanicus » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:39 pm

Des57 wrote:
Germanicus wrote:Nice atmosphere.
How does CSM have so many fans? That club has never been really great, as far as I know, only recently. Does the club have teams in other kind of sports (e.g. football) and fans visit the handball game, too?


No they don't have a football team,but they have basketball,voleyball,rugby,track and field,chess and even moto.The atmosphere was really great,part of the fans were the club junior players,some were Bucharest handball fans and I don't know if it's true, but some could have been from Rapid Bucharest fans.In a city so big as Bucharest it's not that hard to fill a hall like Polivalenta for this really important games.I have no doubt that the in a decisive game with Gyor or Buducnost even the 12k new hall could be 3/4 full.

Thank you.
In conclusion, I declare that EHF must be destroyed

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby mikh » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:54 pm

gergő wrote:
Des57 wrote:the 12k new hall

any fresh info about this?


Fresh? Hmmm, I can compile a brief history of the "project" for those who are interested:
- the City Hall of Bucharest elaborated an amateur-ish specification document, in which the numbers (surface, capacity, energy) were approximate
- Strabag (Austria) - 55 mil. EUR and Astaldi (Italy) - 65 mil. EUR take part in the auction
- Strabag wins the auction (140 vs. 100 evaluation points) and is supposed to start
- July 28, 2014: the Ministry of Finance sends a note to the City Hall of Bucharst telling them Strabag shouldn't even have been in the auction
- August 11, 2014: Strabag is disqualified by the City Hall (based on an observation regarding the total surface of the project); Astaldi became the winner
- September 5, 2014: Strabag is appealing to the CNSC (the national council in charge with solving appeals)
- October 7, 2014: Strabag wins and the City Hall is supposed to reanalyze the 2 offers; the recommendation is to use the energy score to decide the winner (Strabag - 20, Astaldi - 7.5)
- the City Hall can contest the decision but chooses not to; instead they say that they'll prepare a set of questions for both constructors to clear everything up and avoid further legal complications
- January 2015, Astaldi goes to the Court of Appeal, unsatisfied with the decision of the CNSC
- immediately after, Strabag also goes to the Court of Appeal, asking for the review of their appeals with respect to Astaldi's projects
- Strabag asks for the 2 law-suits to be aggregated into one
- February 23, 2015: the mayor of Bucharest says he cannot decide a winner since both competitors are now in the middle of a civil suit and that the City Hall is waiting for the decision from the Court of Appeal; people from Strabag accused him of lying (in fact they can take a decision now) to stall the project, hoping Astaldi will win
- March 3, 2015: the Court of Appeal fixed a new term in the law suit for March 31, 2015; normally it is now up to the Court of Appeal to name its expert which will re-evaluate the 2 offers and decide who will win.

A few extra details:
The whole fuss started from the fact that the City Hall's requirements document is using the word (cca. = approximately) for all the surfaces. Astaldy copy-pasted the doc in their offer, while Strabag came with a real project with fixed numbers and with a more economical offer (in terms of total costs and energy consumption). What's even more interesting is that the Ministry of Finance also sent a note to the City Hall telling them that their requirements are not well elaborated and they can lead to confusion.
You should also take into account that Astaldi is the "favorite" partner of the Municipality of Bucharest. They executed the works at the new National Stadium (ended up costing 100% more than it should've), and several other major civic infrastructure projects in Bucharest (the Basarab bridge - huge project, Metrorex projects - the company managing the tube lines). So, there are major suspicions concerning the way the auction was conducted and there is this feeling that string are pulled to favor Astaldi.

The hall was due for the end of 2015. In January this year the mayor of Bucharest said that though starting 9 months later, the work should be over by the winter of 2016. Unfortunately, nobody knows now when it will all start and chances are it won't be ready for the 2017 gymnastics ECh. Romania's spare solution is the new hall in Cluj Napoca.

If you want to do some reading on your own, here are some articles (to be read in this order):
1. http://www.tolo.ro/2014/09/11/epopeea-salii-de-sport/
2. http://www.tolo.ro/2014/09/15/o-tara-ap ... -cinstita/
3. http://www.tolo.ro/2014/10/08/circa-se- ... -primaria/
4. http://www.gsp.ro/gsp-special/investiga ... 44560.html


Funny how there are no opinions from those Romanian users who were criticizing me 2 years ago when I was urging them not to be hasty in showing photos of "how IT will look" before someone actually gets started with the work. But hey, then again, it was a time when the Anti-Corruption Division wasn't so active and everybody was sending pictures of stadiums and new sports halls to all sports newspapers.

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby gergő » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:03 pm

wow that was interesting, ty mikh!

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby barry.romania » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:43 am

This is your opinion Mikh. National Arena had a bigger price but not with 100%. The price was totally right for such a luxurious stadium WITH roof. Tolontan was right with Elena Udrea but note that Gazeta Sporturilor belongs to the mogul and jailman Dan Voiculescu. The DNA is doing a great job, but 90% of the tolo.ro is crap and political. The DNA already investigated everything. Even freemasons are in jail.

The arena will be finalised UNTIL 2017, probably in 2016, if the k**f court is letting this to happen. The two companies are arguing in lawsuit. Almost one year was lost, I hope they speed up.
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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby mikh » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:22 pm

barry.romania wrote:This is your opinion Mikh. National Arena had a bigger price but not with 100%. The price was totally right for such a luxurious stadium WITH roof. Tolontan was right with Elena Udrea but note that Gazeta Sporturilor belongs to the mogul and jailman Dan Voiculescu. The DNA is doing a great job, but 90% of the tolo.ro is crap and political. The DNA already investigated everything. Even freemasons are in jail.

The arena will be finalised UNTIL 2017, probably in 2016, if the k**f court is letting this to happen. The two companies are arguing in lawsuit. Almost one year was lost, I hope they speed up.


As usual, I think you need to get your facts right.
The initial cost of the stadium was about 119 million EUR. It ended up costing 234.5 million EUR. If basic arithmetic still stands, this is an increase of about 97%. That's what even a reluctant statistician would call a "significant" difference.
Moreover, the roof's cost was of approximately 20 million EUR. As you can see there's a gap of 95 million EUR which nobody wants to tell us (the tax payers) what were they for.
Again, these are numbers that you SHOULD check before writing here.

Second, I refuse to comment on your reluctance about journalist X or Y. This is largely offtopic here. Out of curiosity: did you read the articles I linked to, or have you just read "tolo" in the URL and said "nooooo, he's a bad bad wolf". Because if you had read them, you would've seen that a couple of them refer back to the PUBLIC documents sent by the Ministry of Finance to the City Hall of Bucharest. Those are facts, and have nothing to do with the blog they appear on. They were facts which the city hall completely ignored.

Third, you really don't know how public institutions function. And it's fine, it's not obvious and you do need to take a while to do some digging of your own. But if you examine carefully what happened you'll realize that the Court of Appeal is far from being the culprit. They're just a juridical instance which has to clean the mess that the Municipality of Bucharest did more than 2 years ago when they launched the call for participation at the auction, with a highly interpretable requirements document. This is serious and it's borderline legal (and this is essentially what the Ministry of Finance told them) and it's (I speculate and so do many others) meant to favor a certain constructor.

Finally, YOU are telling me the arena will be ready in 2017! This is so funny! Why should I believe you? The mayor of Bucharest first said it will be ready in 2015, then he pushes it for 2016, but works haven't even started and the execution time both constructors have given is pam, pam, pam... 24 months! The Gymnastics ECh is in April 2017, which means that if by any wonder they start now and even more surprisingly they don't delay it (as we know the custom is in our country), it will be ready roughly 3 weeks before the competition. That means: no apparatus will be in the hall, no inspection will have been made and no test event will have been run. So, if mr. mayor can't even give me a reasonable deadline, who are you and what is your position (more than a simple forum user) to tell me it will be ready "UNTIL" 2017? By the same logic, mark my words mister, in 2020 humans will set foot on Mars! And Monaco will win the ECh in handball!

There are certain things which are really disturbing about your reasoning:
1. you don't actually bring any; you just take gossips form here, some numbers from there, you mix them into a salad of information and then you post them here as if we're supposed to take your word for it
2. whatever you don't understand about the administration, you transform it into a political issue; then you take it and splash those who are trying to explain you something with the attribute "politician". I wish you'd be more balanced and see that things are not as easy as building an arena out of thin air: you need money (how much and where does it come from?), you need a constructor (who do you choose and how?) then you need to operate it (most arenas have to generate revenue besides their main sporting purpose from shows, concerts, exhibitions - who manages the arena? what are the benefits of managing it?)
3. you believe everything's fed to you by the media. I mean you don't trust a certain newspaper writer because he works for gsp, but you posted so many pictures with sports halls prototypes and stadiums, transfer gossip and so on also coming from gsp. Sooo, when you like what they write, gsp is good, when you don't they're "crap and political". You remind me of the South Park sketches on Michael Jackson: "it's ignorant, it's ignorant!".
4. just because something is "luxurious" (that's how you call it, I think it's just a normal, civilized stadium) doesn't mean it justifies the means. By your logic, we should throw all the budget money on building luxurious things. It will make others say "wow! Romania!". At the same time the rest of Romanians will say "ouch! Romania!" while they break their necks on shitty roads, children learn in disgusting schools, sick people die from nothing in below-average hospitals. But hey, they strong and stupid will survive to enjoy (not play!) football and handball in "extra-terrestrial" (since our media is so much into this term) arenas!

Apologies to everyone for the long post!

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby barry.romania » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:41 pm

such a stadium isn`t built with 120 million euros, you`re just as funny as the GSP journalists. I know what I`m talking about, I study architecture. secondly, it was added a roof and some other facilities. thirdly, Tolotan lied about the Franfkurt stadium, the train station wasn`t included and the German contruction was built on the site of the former arena. if National Arena wouln`t have looked like a colosseum, the price would have been at +300. Gazeta Sporturilor is political, some of its first prices were 170 million or so, after those 120. it was impossible to be that low (120), only if it was without the VAT or if they did it on purpose to attack politically.

the indoor arena will be made, the same as the stadium, the same as the future ice rink and so on. MONEY there are, the ammounts were already approved.

so you have something with Oprescu? there are more chances to be soon built than again to be delayed. trust me I also don`t like this especially for CSM.

he`s father was a colonel at Securitate (not of Oprescu :) Oprescu is himself a doctor). ok, he didn`t sell himself like Latrina 3, but regarding politics in a sportsnewspaper it`s just lame. moreover, some accusations were false. the majority except Udrea (probably they got an info then). because he was right with this lady, I like the opposition so he can write. this doesn`t mean I believe him or that I follow Antena 3. the DNA should do this though 99% of their programmes are manipulation.

MITICISMELE don`t stand for Transylvania. Kovesi surely investigated this. if the DNA already did it with Udrea.

and man, I read it, but I have my own filter.

PS. the sport is a social phenomenon, like music and so on. btw, I see good improvements in hospitals, unsatisfied in roads, in rest the schools were always good just with the mention in the rural area not (I`m talking about the villages).

it`s obvious where you want to drag this discussion in. LIKE ALWAYS! :D politics or anarchism, you decide. honestly you don`t look like a non-Romanian.

I`m not involved in the politics and for the second part you would talk for 20 Romanians at maximum.

for your notice, Romania wants to be Germany over night but for that in sport you need huge economy. I can give examples of the Ligue 1 teams in France football which are supported by the city halls +80%. in handball, the mayor of Gyor is highly involved in the ETO project - it was just revealed, and Larvik got again money from the municipality. before, Krim got lots of money too. did you speak previously about this or not? it`s called media and brain washing indoctrination to check out only a point of view.
Last edited by barry.romania on Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby barry.romania » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:11 pm

who the k**f cares Gazeta Sporturilor wrote about some numbers? maybe somebody from the Bucharest City Hall thought the stadium can be made with such a low price and gave info. and the first project was without the roof.

Baku National Stadium (68.700 - 640 million dollars)
Allianz Arena (66.000 in 2005 - 340 million euros)
Aviva Stadium (this arena is very similar but smaller, 51.700 and had a cost of 410 million euros - half being from the government)
New Zenit Stadium (66.881, 1 million euros, NON-EU anyway)
Stade Pierre-Mauroy in Lille (50.186, 282 million euros)
National Stadium, Warsaw (58.145, 465 million euros the best improved copy of Frankfurt stadium, almost double than in Romania but I agree the design was better)
Friends Arena in Stocklholm (50.653, less larger of course and more expensive, but the cost in Sweden is higher)

if you wanted examples. I posted almost all the retractable-roof stadiums of Europe.

ONLY in Düsseldorf there`s an exception. cheap Esprit Arena, 240 million euros. kinda the same capacity but the thing that the inside looks worse than the one of National Arena in Bucharest. in my opinion. the price is exactly the same but you can expect in Romania to be made a bit cheaper but not that cheaper considering the company wasn`t Romanian.

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby mikh » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:55 pm

:lol:

And your sources are...?
Anarchy? Politics? Easter bunny? Spaghetti? You're just throwing words whenever you cannot make a point.
Question: where in the examples you gave me the price has changed during the execution of the project by 100%?

Don't worry, I am not actually waiting for your answer. Speaking to you is as worthwhile as contemplating a blank sheet of paper. I'll let you get back to your pictures, rumors and whatever it is that you're contributing with here and hope to hear from you by the end of 2016: take a picture from the new hall, will you?

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Silviu » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:09 pm

mikh wrote:[...] who are you and what is your position (more than a simple forum user) to tell me it will be ready "UNTIL" 2017? By the same logic, mark my words mister, in 2020 [...] Monaco will win the ECh in handball!

That's a dangerous bet. Quatar bought a team from elsewhere and almost did it :D.
As much as I enjoy your excellent posts, I wonder why do you bother... :)

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Anicia Juliana » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:18 pm

Silviu wrote:
mikh wrote:[...] who are you and what is your position (more than a simple forum user) to tell me it will be ready "UNTIL" 2017? By the same logic, mark my words mister, in 2020 [...] Monaco will win the ECh in handball!

That's a dangerous bet. Quatar bought a team from elsewhere and almost did it :D.
As much as I enjoy your excellent posts, I wonder why do you bother... :)


Me too ... there are 5 % trolls on this forum and 95% users actually following handball. You choose to answer the 5% and using 3000 characters to do it. Is it worth it?
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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby mikh » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:03 am

Anicia Juliana wrote:
Silviu wrote:
mikh wrote:[...] who are you and what is your position (more than a simple forum user) to tell me it will be ready "UNTIL" 2017? By the same logic, mark my words mister, in 2020 [...] Monaco will win the ECh in handball!

That's a dangerous bet. Quatar bought a team from elsewhere and almost did it :D.
As much as I enjoy your excellent posts, I wonder why do you bother... :)


Me too ... there are 5 % trolls on this forum and 95% users actually following handball. You choose to answer the 5% and using 3000 characters to do it. Is it worth it?


I suppose you're both right. I promised myself I would ignore him and I actually stopped reading him for more than a year. Call it a moment of craziness on my behalf. In all fairness, sometimes that 5% can be quite "loud" and disturbing.

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby LucianK » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:13 pm

CSM București - HCM Rm. Vâlcea 34-21 (12-9)

CSM: Torstensson 7, Rodrigues 4, Vetkova 4, Manea 4, Fachinello 3, Vizitiu 3, Da Silva 2, Vărzaru 2, Bazaliu 2, Martin 1, Glibko 1, Nicula 1.
HCM: Ilina 6, Luca 4, Vădineanu 4, Semedo 3, Andrei 3, Adespii Molnar 1

Both teams went head to head until minute 45, when CSM stepped up their game and scored 6 in a row. Great to see Manea playing again & working on her comeback and Bazaliu getting some playing time.

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby mikh » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:49 pm

Vâlcea surprisingly good this season. If it hadn't been for the slow start of the season, they would be clear of Ploiești. In general they seem more convincing than Ploiești (heck, with decent refs they would've won the return match against them), but have fallen short on consistency this season. I think coach Muși got more than he could from this squad and with a few good additions they could finish higher than 8th next year.
Still, I don't seem to understand what exactly is the long term goal / strategy of this club.

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Adriyanos » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:58 am

They lacked consistency and Musi has had several strange decisions (calling TO in the 10th minute against Ploiesti, when Valcea was leading 4-0 is strange). But I really think that there are shady things about the team. I watched the game against Deva and it looked like a textbook-fix. In the first half, the guests were plain awful in defence. In the last 30 minutes, Valcea took their place. A 30-28 win after a 19-11 rout at halftime by Valcea smells bad. :)

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Silviu » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:19 pm

Do someone know something about Ane Eidem? How serious is her injury? :(

And btw, congratulations to Rapid Bucharest for promotion!

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby LucianK » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:17 am

Silviu wrote:Do someone know something about Ane Eidem? How serious is her injury? :(


She did an MRI in Romania and she's got a 2nd degree knee sprain, with some lesions on the collateral ligaments. There's no need for surgery, the docs. recommended 10 days of rest, but she'll go to Norway to do more advanced testings.

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Adriyanos » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:09 am

Slightly offtopic, but still interesting.

Alexandru Dedu, the president of the Romanian Handball Federation, has found it appropriate to party with Minaur Baia Mare after they won the Romanian Cup. :)

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Adriyanos » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:40 am

As the local authorities did not approve CSM Bucharest's budget, the players were not payed this year. So they are threatening to go on strike. Everything will sort itself out, but the club, as a whole, will have some problems. However, they are saying that the women's handball team will be ok.

http://www.prosport.ro/alte-sporturi/ha ... a-14112391

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby CSM Bucharest » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:21 pm

It has been approved this Monday. Thanks God that they started to focus less on rugby and volleyball where they should use more local players from the academy. 6.6 million euros instead of 9, and the women section of handball will get 2 million euros instead of current 1.5.

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Re: Romanian NL (W) 2014/15

Postby Silviu » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:31 pm

Adriyanos wrote:As the local authorities did not approve CSM Bucharest's budget, the players were not payed this year.

This is already a long list of financial problems: HCM Constanța, Neptun Constanța, Știința Bacău, "U" Alexandrion Cluj, Corona Brașov... :(


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