WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby karel » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:08 pm

This decision is absolutely crazy and unfair. First, I thought, that Australia just resigned, quited, and that's why Germany replaced them but now I hear they were excluded. :shock: It's sick... :evil: I know Australians are very weak, but it has nothing to do with that. World championships should be WORLD chamionships and every part of the world shoul have chance to be ther, not only "top and rich".
We eliminated Germans. So what... The victory is victory, but my satisfaction is not so big anymore, because they would have their spot in the WCH after all. :roll:
I wonder what what happen if the situation was different. I mean: if Germans eliminated us. Would Poland get the "wild card" in the same circumstances? I doubt...
I remember that some years ago Polish female team eliminated Germany in playoffs to WCh or ECh. Then some team from Asia resigned and Germans got their spot. In the main tournament Germans wer in the same group with Poland and crushed us. I hope such a situation won't repeat in Quatar... :evil: :roll:



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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Rammy » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:05 pm

No, Poland would not have had the will card had they lost to Germany. Nor would Iceland had got it.

In that case Oceania would have had a recognised association, and there would have been no wild card.
Germany are good enough to be in Qatar, but this is ugly! Nothing to do with sport.

And Germany need not fear ever to miss out again. IHF will introduce permanent wild cards from now on. They have them in basketball, and while the FIBA are not as corrupt as the IHF, it is still ugly. Brazil didn't even bother to send their first team to the qualifiers. They knew they would get a wild card anyway. They lost badly, but still got their wild card.

I have a suggestion: Why not just send the cup to the association that provides the IHF with the Biggest check. Would save players from getting injured!

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby karel » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:32 am

Rammy wrote:No, Poland would not have had the will card had they lost to Germany. Nor would Iceland had got it.


I know. My question was just sarcastic.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Rammy » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:32 am

There are some decent people in Germany.
Daniel Stephan was embarrassed: "Natürlich ist es immens wichtig, dass wir doch bei der WM in Katar dabei sind. Aber es ist doch auch allen klar, dass das eine Lex Deutschland ist. Die IHF braucht Deutschland und hat nun einen äußerst fragwürdigen Weg gefunden", sagte Stephan.
Respect.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Grzymisław » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:49 pm

That's a big scandal!
Why Germany? Not Hungary or Iceland.

I may be happy not to see Australia which is totally amateur and see top 5 candidate instead, but it's changing rules during the game, one of the things I hate the most. Hopefully next time will be no guraranteed place for Australia & Oceania(like it is in football) and everything right to give one more to Europe.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby william » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:29 pm

Yes it seems that the German officials totally lost their sanity. I am German an I am deeply shocked that our "leader" are part of the "gang". At the end there is just one winner, Moustapha and his allies. With this trick he broadend is support base since also the last critics will become mute. What a shame.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby mikh » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:29 am

william wrote:Yes it seems that the German officials totally lost their sanity. I am German an I am deeply shocked that our "leader" are part of the "gang". At the end there is just one winner, Moustapha and his allies. With this trick he broadend is support base since also the last critics will become mute. What a shame.


Exactly, EHF and traditional countries, out of which Germany was the leader of opinion were traditionally counter-balancing Mustapha's dictatorial tendencies. Now, I suppose he'll have leverage.

About Oceania and Australia. They might be far from pro and everything, but it's a WORLD Championship (not a Euro + African and Asian champion). If you don't encourage and support the teams all over the world you won't make a brand out of this tournament. And if this isn't indeed the championship they claim to be, then maybe we're better off without it. A Euro every 2 years would be better for supporters and players altogether.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Ivar » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:56 am

Here's the list the EHF sent to the IHF regarding substitute nations from Europe. Obviously it was ignored.

https://twitter.com/EspenKar/status/487 ... 09/photo/1

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby max » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:38 pm

Ivar wrote:Here's the list the EHF sent to the IHF regarding substitute nations from Europe. Obviously it was ignored.

https://twitter.com/EspenKar/status/487 ... 09/photo/1

WOW !

So Iceland-Hungary and Serbia are ditched by IHF.... (and EHF)

Btw : DK and Germany hosts WCh 2019, so I'm "pretty confident" that Danish Handball Federation
will do absolutely nothing about this issue... [-X
- do the future belong to the mad ? -

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Rammy » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:56 pm

It is all a disgrace, of course. While I don't agree with Mikh that Oceania necessarily needs a place in the World cup, half a place like in FIFA 2014 would do, you just cannot throw them out after the qualifiers have been played. Australia players paid their own fare for the qualifiers against NZ. Will Mustapha reimburse them?

But I wonder what are Oceania supposed to have done wrong (apart from not being Germany)?
There is no federation? Even the IHF has a link to the Oceanian Federation. Why does it not exist?

And of course, should there by legitimate reason to throw them out, Iceland are the replacement. The rules are clear enough.

I do hope that both Australia and Iceland take it to CAS. They are the only people to be trusted in the corrupt world of sports these days. And if CAS reinstates Australia, Iceland should shed no tears. They did lose to Bosnia, but they are first reserve by right.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby bajkalb » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:00 pm

Rammy wrote:It is all a disgrace, of course. While I don't agree with Mikh that Oceania necessarily needs a place in the World cup, half a place like in FIFA 2014 would do, you just cannot throw them out after the qualifiers have been played. Australia players paid their own fare for the qualifiers against NZ. Will Mustapha reimburse them?

But I wonder what are Oceania supposed to have done wrong (apart from not being Germany)?
There is no federation? Even the IHF has a link to the Oceanian Federation. Why does it not exist?

And of course, should there by legitimate reason to throw them out, Iceland are the replacement. The rules are clear enough.

I do hope that both Australia and Iceland take it to CAS. They are the only people to be trusted in the corrupt world of sports these days. And if CAS reinstates Australia, Iceland should shed no tears. They did lose to Bosnia, but they are first reserve by right.



Ok It's out of question, that this is a shame. But was there a significant protest by Iceland, Hu, SRB etc.?

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Ivar » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:42 pm

bajkalb wrote:Ok It's out of question, that this is a shame. But was there a significant protest by Iceland, Hu, SRB etc.?


Well, journalists in Iceland are covering this issue passionately and the top officials of the Icelandic Handball Federation have said that they will be pushing this issue as far as they possibly can. It's starting to look like the EHF is partly to blame for this, which I doubted at first, so they probably won't do anything.

I assume Hungary and Serbia don't care since they aren't the first priority substitute.
Last edited by Ivar on Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Arcosh » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:56 pm

Rammy wrote:There is no federation? Even the IHF has a link to the Oceanian Federation. Why does it not exist?

Unfortunately it's not that easy. First of all the Oceania Handball Federation (OHF) used to be the continental federation and acknowledged member of the IHF. But back in 2007 or 2008 there was some kind of brawl between IHF and OHF an the nations of Oceania established an new continental federation - the Oceania Continent Handball Federation (OCHF). Since then all continental handball competitions (including WCh qualification) have been organised by the OCHF, but it never became a member of the IHF. The IHF statues state:
10.2. General Condition
1. Continental federations shall be recognised when they have at least ten Member Federations.

Obviously Oceania can't fulfill this requirement and therefore the OCHF will not become a member of the IHF. But this wasn't a problem when Australia qualified for the WCH in 2009, 2011 and 2013 as a member of the OCHF and they are still allowed to take part in the Beach Handball WCh this summer as well as the IHF Super globe.

If IHF doesn't want participants that don't stand a chance they should change the rules for qualification. But this needs to be done before the start of WCH qualification and not two weeks before the WCh draw. :!:

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Rammy » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:38 am

It just keeps getting worse!

According to Arne Elovsson, VP of EHF, a proposal was tabled at the beginning of the meeting that all Continents should have equal rights to extra places. As this was carried, rule 2.8 was effectively cancelled, and as no Continental Federation had deciding power, the decision then lay in the hands of the IHF Executive. Voilà!

Lawmaking like that reminds me of the story about Henry VII in England, dating his ascendancy to the English throne to the day before the battle of Bosworth. Hence everyone fighting against him were traitors. Voilà!

It seems strange to me that the rules of the IHF can be changed at the whim of the Executive. But what do I know. But all this makes embarrassing reading for the Germans who insist that this was not a "Lex Deutschland". If it wasn't, why was it necessary to hurriedly change/repel/ignore rule 2.8?

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby karel » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:39 pm

So , Germans are in the 6th pot before the draw. I just wait for them in our group. I really won't be surprised if this happen. :lol:

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby thomas21 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:56 am

Hi,

I am a player of the Australian National team and we are absolutely disgusted with the decision.
We have invested so much time, money and effort to prepare for the competition.

We are fighting the decision to try to get our post back.

We could have understood if they would have changed the qualification process for Oceania but not taking our spot 6 months from the competition like that.

It's clear that the decision is economical and that the Qatari dollars from Al Jazeera (Be in Sport) and QTA had an impact into the decision.

Please support us and like our page:
www.facebook.com/supportaustralianhandball

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby mikh » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:48 am

thomas21 wrote:Hi,

I am a player of the Australian National team and we are absolutely disgusted with the decision.
We have invested so much time, money and effort to prepare for the competition.

We are fighting the decision to try to get our post back.

We could have understood if they would have changed the qualification process for Oceania but not taking our spot 6 months from the competition like that.

It's clear that the decision is economical and that the Qatari dollars from Al Jazeera (Be in Sport) and QTA had an impact into the decision.

Please support us and like our page:
http://www.facebook.com/supportaustralianhandball


Hey! Welcome on the forum!
I think you have the sympathy of everybody here. As you could read, even some German former players have reacted against this decision.
Best course of action is for the Australian Handball Federation and the current structures of Oceania to take the case to the TAS/CAS (http://www.tas-cas.org/). If you can get the help of the EHF (which was also by-passed in this process and basically received a "Greek gift") and the Icelandic Federation, I think your case would stand even better chances. In any case, if there's something you could do now, this would be it: take the case to TAS/CAS.
Good luck and keep us posted, please!

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Gerzson » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:44 am

mikh wrote:And if you thought German handball hit a low after losing to Poland, you were wrong!
They STOLE the place from Australia and "qualified" to the WCh! Well done DHB, German NT, IHF and EHF! I hope all of them get booed wherever they go from now on (unfortunately, it's the only way a supporter can make his voice heard in the world of handball).


Well, instead of booing, if'd go to the WCH, I'd dress in Australian colors and would bring Australian flags and kangaroos and stuffs like that. Would be great to see that neutral fans join forces and get Australia present in this way and make their opinion visible!

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby mikh » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:05 am

A well argumented opinion by ex-forum member John Ryan: http://teamhandballnews.com/wordpress/2 ... hfs-atlas/

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Rammy » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:02 pm

With regard to Mikh's suggestion that Australia should seek support from the EHF and Iceland I beg to differ.
Coach Ottesen complained that nobody supported them (Australia) and that Iceland 's only complaint concerned themselves. At the same time the Australian federation issues a statement that they couldn't care less about complaints from other countries.
It wouldn't have made any difference in reality, but it just underlines the fact that Australia are on their own here.
And they are two very different complaints. The IHF have broken two different rules. Also, Iceland's case is dependent on Australia being unsuccessful!
Personally I think that both federations should do it. Iceland have written to IHF seeking explanations but received no reply. Unsurprisingly!
CAS have a good record in my opinion. But if Iceland go there and Australia do not, it would not be in the CAS remit to deal with Australias dismissal.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby karel » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:55 am

karel wrote:So , Germans are in the 6th pot before the draw. I just wait for them in our group. I really won't be surprised if this happen. :lol:

I was right: against Germany again. :lol: :roll: What a circus...
Our group with Denmark, Russia, Argentina, Bahrain and Germany is quite strong, because there is no really weak team except Bahrain and we have the best opponent form the 6th pot. All the teams here need full concetration in the group phase, cause if the lose some points it might be difficult to make up for the loss in the secon group stage. I just hope Germany have problem against any opponent which would show how stupid EHF's decision was...
Here are the other groups:
A: Spain, Slovenia, Quatar, Belarus, Brazil, Chile
B: Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia, Austria, Tunisia, Iran
C: France, Sweden, Algeria, Czech Rep., Egypt, UAE
Group B seems to be the weakest. Croatia shouldn't have any problems to get the first place.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby Rammy » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:33 pm

Yes, it had to happen, hadn't it. But it is not about qualification, that should be achieved quite easily by both Germany and Poland. The big thing is avoiding fourth place, and a game with France. You probably will need to avoid third, too, because France aren't always bothered to win their group.

The Swedes have rather stupidly claimed to have had a dream draw. But this way they are guaranteed a big team in the first play-off round: Denmark, Poland, Germany or Russia. Nightmare,more like.

It has now transpired that Australia were not thrown out because Oceania does not have a recognised Federation, but because they are too weak playingwise. The IHF will apply the same principle to the women's tournament and throw out the weakest Panamerican side. I still think Australia should have a case with CAS, but if they cannot be bothered, should we?

It has also transpired that the IHF claimed to have changed the rule, whereby the EHF should designate the reserve (i.e. Iceland) on 30 May, which is a lie, because there was no meeting on that day. It would seem Iceland, too have a case, but the same principle applies, they have to fight their own war.

I am not looking forward to this tournament, not only because I will throw up at the sight of Germany, but because the format is so stupid. The Worlds don't start until the playoffs (except possibly group D), and France will usually upset the seedings by not trying too hard in the group stage.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby mikh » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:05 pm

John Ryan continues to report about the Australian handball.

Former Australian national team player now journalist Courtney Gahan weighs in on the IHF decision to exclude Oceania from the 2015 World Championship and just how important international competitions like the WC are to developing handball nations like Australia.

You can find the full article here.

I really like John's website and his analysis on American and now Australian handball.
I hope the Aussies can pick themselves up and become a competitive side in the next 20 years or so. I think our sport could only benefit from having decent, if not powerful teams in that region too.

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby dylan.grey » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:24 am

Really interesting article by John Ryan. Thanks for sharing!
It's a shame the Australian are forbidden to take part at the WC in Qatar!

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Re: WCh 2015 (Qatar) - Qualification

Postby mikh » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:48 am

And the IHF saga of dictatorship under Mustapha continues. Check out Section 2.3 in the updated IHF Competition Regulation.

Here's a transcription of it:
To participate in IHF World Championships a certain performance level of the qualified team is obligatory. In case the competitive capability of a qualified team is disputable and the difference in performance level between the country in question and the other teams qualified for the WCh is too large, the IHF Council reserves the right to re-award this place to a country meeting the corresponding competitive requirements in order to strengthen and protect the IHF World Championship product. In such cases an in-depth analysis has to be carried out by the respective IHF Commissions (COC, CCM) as well as by media and marketing experts to highlight the impact on the media and marketing side. Also the current performance as well as the IHF ranking and the performance in earlier IHF events will be taken into consideration when evaluating the performance level of the respective team. Therefore the IHF bodies will issue performance reports about all participating teams immediately after the end of the respective World Championship.

What does this mean? Well, you don't need to be a genius to understand the arbitrariness that this decision incurs on the qualifying process.
Thank you again to John Ryan for discovering and sharing this very well hidden piece of IHF bureaucracy. Also excellent analysis of the non-sense situations this decision will give birth to in future qualifications (both men and women)!


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